Kinan Azmeh: Berlin and Beyond

Syrian-born New York-based clarinetist and composer Kinan Azmeh and his CityBand released Live in Berlin on March 1, 2025 (recorded in 2021), dedicating the project to the people of Syria with this statement: "It moves me profoundly to be sharing this album with the world as my Syrian people are able to sing again after the long and costly struggle against tyranny and dictatorship. The album is dedicated to all who believe that making music is also an act of freedom."

Live in Berlin's release comes 13 years after Elastic City, CityBand's debut recording (Self Produced, 2012). He sat with AAJ and spoke about the music, his background, his gear, the band and his compositional processes (February 19, 2025). An earlier brief introduction to Azmeh is here.

Evolving Beyond the Score

All About Jazz: I'd like to talk about the music and also its meaning, since you are dedicating it to the people of Syria. Let's start with the music.

Kinan Azmeh: Absolutely.

AAJ: So the first two tracks seem to be an uninterrupted performance, perhaps an improvisation?

KA: Actually, the first two pieces, both "The Queen Commanded" and "The Translator," were written for visual media. The first was written for a play (The Queen Commanded Him to Forget, by Ofira Henig and Khalifa Natour). And when I say 'written,' the first track is written almost note for note, to set lyrics. It's a poem by Ramy Al-Asheq, a Syrian poet living in Berlin. But then I loved how the music worked on its own, too, so it became an introductory piece in many concerts.

Right after it is "The Translator." You'll find it funny that this was written for a film, but then the director of the film decided not to use it because it was, in their words, "too intellectual" for the film. So I was stuck with—not stuck, but I looked at it in a different way, and ended up dissecting it into just a groove and a couple of intervals, really. And the rest was free for us to do whatever we wanted to do with it. So the first track is fully composed, the second track is kind of a free improvisation for everybody. Within given parameters of course.

AAJ: I'd love to be able to look at a couple of scores or lead sheet or whatever, just to see what the musicians are looking at.

KA: I'd be happy to send you a couple of charts. For my music, actually, every piece is different, to be honest. Some pieces end up having a lead sheet situation, but they come from a fully fleshed-out piece. For example, the score for that first tune is written down for a voice and two clarinets originally; that's what the piece was for. And the second piece ended up being a full piece for string quartet, that I did for a Brooklyn writer, a string quartet that is based in Brooklyn. It became a fully fleshed out score. The lead now is actually just two bars of material. [laughter]

So when I'm writing pieces for orchestras, of course it's a full score that they expect, but also with this group—CityBand with Josh Myers and Kyle Sanna and John Hadfield—you asked what the musicians were looking at. Actually they were looking at nothing throughout the whole performance of this concert. Because we've played this music over the years many times and we've gotten to the point where we're able to just play the music. So that has been very interesting for us to see how the music evolves beyond just the score. But I'm happy to share some scores with you.

Singing in the Streets

AAJ: The third track had that amazing drum solo, kind of intrusive, sticks on rims clacking, "Daraa?"

KA: There are a lot of amazing drum solos from the wonderful John Hadfield, and he's doing like a hybrid set up. He has the full drum set, of course, but there are lots of additional percussion instruments that he collected over the years in different parts of the world. Also, the way he uses the drum set is very interesting, because he doesn't use it in a very standard way. There is a big solo in "Daraa."

AAJ: He comes into the solo quite a way into the piece, suddenly. So tell me, what was he doing there?

KA: You know, I think if I give you a little background of the piece that will explain a little bit the situation. Daraa is the name of a city in the southwest corner of Syria, and that's also where the uprising began back in 2011, in March. So this piece is dedicated to the people of that city and what they represented. I am happy to reacknowledge that it finally brought down the tyrant, the dictator in Damascus, but... It's little known that for the first maybe two years of the uprising, the people used to sing songs in support of the other cities that were bombed or shot at. So at some point in 2011 or 2012, this melody that you hear, "Daraa"—the only not-original melody on the album—was sung by millions of Syrians who went to the streets singing for Daraa. But of course I put it totally in a different context, and you hear it over and over. It's like a protest song, obviously.

But then, John and I wanted it to take a more aggressive nature, and that's what he does. He just takes us somewhere totally else.

AAJ: Yes. That's what I meant by 'intrusive.'

KA: Absolutely. I'm glad this comes across because this is exactly what I wanted him to do, to take us somewhere else. And there is also a drum-and-bassy feel to it, but it stays in a dark place.

AAJ: Remarkable. So you just said "another place?" You didn't tell him where to go?

KA: Yes. When you play with the same friends—we've been playing almost 18 years together—they know. We know each other's stories so well, you know. And part of what I love about collaborating with Kyle and John and Josh is that we understand each other on such a high level. I don't have to explain where to go and what to do. It's just "let's do it." And everybody is super sensitive. We know where to go. Sometimes we say, "not that, that" and we change options. But I am from the classical world, and working with this group, with this much freedom, is what I love. I love it when I bring a piece to four living humans and trust that they will think of it, and they will interpret it according to their own storytelling capabilities. I love that aspect of freedom that this music allows, which is very different from when I am writing a score.

A Culturally Curious Household

AAJ: I know you went to Juilliard, but you also have an engineering degree? What was the progression of your education?

KA: So starting from early on, I grew up in a household that is very culturally curious. So we were exposed, my sister and I, from our parents, to a variety of things: literature, music, the sciences, you name it. And I went to a conventional school of course and studied music at a young age. Started with the violin first then switched to the clarinet, but nobody was planning for me to become a professional musician. For me, it was just an additional homework that I had to go through. It wasn't a very pleasant experience in the beginning. But then I fell in love with the sound of the instruments, and I fell in love with how the sound of the instrument was moving me. I remember very clearly the first time I was moved by my own sound, and how powerful that felt. And how empowered, also, I felt.

And I finished high school. And I loved the sciences, still do, math and physics specifically. So I wanted to do everything; I wanted to continue to do everything so I was going to engineering school because I love it. My dad is an engineer, incidentally. But it was not that he encouraged me. I give credit to my parents for telling me, "Do everything that you want to do. If you can do everything, do everything." So I went to engineering school, but also I went to a separate school to study music. This wasn't even like a double major; I had to go to two different physical spaces.

AAJ: Wow. At the same time, and this was in college?

KA: Yes. This was in college. So I used to commute a few times—an hour each way between the music school and the engineering school. But then I discovered over the years that I was spending more and more time in my music school and with my music friends. So when I was applying to graduate schools—Damascus Conservatory didn't offer any graduate programs—I knew I wanted to study in the US, because of the openness of the education system. You can do a variety of things, you know. My plan was to go somewhere where I could continue my studies in math, physics and music, but naturally I found myself just applying for schools in music. And I guess at that point I said, "This is way more made for you." And I knew that I wanted to go to a big city, and I had gone to New York and Boston when I was sixteen, for a very short period. So when I was applying to schools I basically focused on these two cities, Boston and New York.

I ended up at Juilliard, which I was very happy about. Not only because I was studying with the wonderful Charles Neidich on clarinet, but also because of the city itself. I think I learned from the city as much as I learned from the school. And at Juilliard I learned from the students who were attending the school as much as I learned from faculty. So I was surrounded by people who are really pushing boundaries in a certain way. And also, even though I went to a classical school, and that's mostly my education, I started improvising really early on, at the encouragement of my parents.

My parents wanted me to improvise and to compose and also to program on the computer. That aspect of creativity was always encouraged. So here I am. I'm a musician who does a variety of things, including composing, improvising, performing the standard repertoire, too.

AAJ: Did you study Arabic classical music?

KA: The focus was mainly on Western classical music, even although I don't like that term because I don't think that repertoire is only for the Westerners, you know. I studied Bach, Brahms, Beethoven and Mozart, but I grew up in a city like Damascus, where Arabic music, Kurdish music, Armenian music, ancient Syriac music was part of the sonic fabric of the country.

And in my education at the Higher Institute of Music, where I studied, while the focus was on Western classical repertoire, we had to take two courses a year of Arabic music theory and Arabic music vocabulary. And it's one of those things that I didn't pay much attention to then. I only noticed how important they were in shaping me musically after I left Syria and came to the US. It's the classic case of noticing how important the museum of your hometown is. You only realize it after you leave it. So I'm glad that we had this education that allowed me to tap back into what I missed growing up, which is Arabic music.

A Sense of Home

AAJ: Beautiful. And great background. Thank you. To move back into the tracks, tell us about "Jisreen."

KA: "Jisreen" is also one of those pieces that pay tribute to places that have been incredibly important in defining what home is to me. Jisreen is this little village outside of Damascus where, growing up, every weekend my parents would take us—with the cousins and friends of the cousins and friends of the family—to go and play in the fields of course, but also—most importantly—to work in the land. So I grew up being very comfortable digging the soil and planting trees and knowing when to water trees, how to take care of agriculture at large. And I think it's because of it that Jisreen—which is maybe 10 kilometers from Damascus—is where I developed my most sincere sense of home. And I guess it's true when some people say that when you plant a tree, that's where your home is, or one of your homes, and it certainly is.

And I notice now that—fast forward more than 30 years later—that when I planted my first tree in New York City, in Brooklyn four ago, in my back yard, it changed my connection to the city, forever. It's funny to notice these kinds of patterns. Jisreen is part of the Ghuta, which is a green belt that surrounds Damascus, which was heavily heavily bombed during the uprising. It was basically the cradle of the uprising, actually, the parts that are surrounding Damascus. So the piece was a tribute to the people of the land, the apricot trees that I planted and soil and the soul of the place.

AAJ: The landscape feels almost barren in some places during the piece.

KA: It's very open. There is a very open landscape. There is a melody that I would describe as a sweet melody, but it gets interrupted halfway and also goes into a dark place. But then the melody comes back. And when I wrote, it was the optimist in me trying to bring that beautiful melody back. So now, when I tell you this story it just brings me tremendous pleasure to know that the melody came back, actually, in real life. After that dark period that Syria went through, people are able to sing again. So it's one of these things that the landscape shifted a lot between when I recorded the album and now, when it's released. Lots of these pieces were inspired by things that I have been actively thinking about for the last 14 years, and now to present them in a totally different context is very meaningful. At least it's a happier context, certainly.

Acts of Freedom

AAJ: Right. And speaking of which, in "Dance" and "Wedding," there is clearly a lot of written stuff, shifting meters and all that kind of thing. So "Dance" is from "The Fence, the Rooftop and the Distant City." What is that about?

KA: So "The Fence, the Rooftop and the Distant City" is a very fleshed-out score, "Wedding" is a very small score. "Wedding" is the piece that the band and I have played the most. The piece is in a 15/8 meter, but we play in the subdivisions a lot, 5-2-3-5, 5-4-3-2-1, different groupings. Maybe this is part of my obsession with math and physics, you know, that brought me to work on this groove, because it is not a traditional Syrian groove or anything. It's made up. And the band and I totally nerd out typically in this piece.

AAJ: Yeah. Thank you. It's incredible. I was pretty sure it stayed in 15, but it was all kind of blurred, on-purpose blurred, then I thought, "no, it's still 15." [laughter]

KA: I'm glad to hear that, to know, and the fact that you find it exciting. Sometimes it ends up being just music for musicians' sake, but it's lovely to try to change the perception of meter and pulse...

Let me continue to tell you about "Wedding" a little bit. It's a piece that also changed context over the years for me. The piece is inspired by the mood and the spirit that one can find in a Syrian village wedding. The energy of the piece is what happens in the public square when everybody shows up and the party is happening. And for all these years—the piece is older, from back in 2006—and when I started playing it after 2011, I found myself dedicating it to all of the people who managed to fall in love in Syria under bombs and under bullets, still continued to have that resilience to simply fall in love. And falling in love is an act of freedom, an act of resilience, too. So that's the background of "Wedding."

And "The Fence, the Rooftop and the Distant City"/"Dance" is one movement from this larger work that I wrote initially for clarinet and cello, for the wonderful Yo-Yo Ma and myself and it was released on my previous album as a clarinet and cello duo piece (Uneven Sky, Dreyer Gaido, 2018). But this movement, somehow, I found that I have to bring this piece to the quartet, so it has a life beyond being just a written-down piece. Which is something that happens very often in my work, actually, this spillover between the compositions that I write fully versus bringing things to the band. Many times, I bring sketches of things I'm commissioned to write for orchestra to the band to test some of the ideas, and sometimes I'm just writing and I think, "Oh, I should bring this to the band because I'm going to enjoy playing this with them." And that's what happened with "Dance." And this is more written down, with the shifting meters...

Family Away from Family

AAJ: I'm curious how you hooked up with these musicians, how you met them.

KA: It happened in a very organic way. I moved to New York in 2001. 2003 I started a band in Damascus, partially because I didn't want to lose the connection with Damascus. I wanted to have a reason to stay connected. So I didn't have the need, nor the urge, to start another band in New York. 2006 I get invited to play in this little café called Epistrophy in Soho, in New York. A friend of mine who is a trumpet player said, "I am starting this festival, do you want to come and play?" I said, "OK, sure." Bring your band, and I'll give you a date, he said. I said yes, and then after I said yes, I'm like, "Oh, shit, I don't have a band [laughter], what do I do now?" So I had known Kyle Sanna for a few years prior, and we'd played together a few times. And usually this is what I do: I go to play with people that I like how they think. It's not necessarily how they play and how virtuosic; I like to connect with you intellectually before wanting to play together. And Kyle is somebody who struck me as having both. He is an incredible musician, and I love hanging out with this guy. So I asked Kyle if he would like to play with me, and we rehearsed a couple of times and we thought it would be nice to have a drummer with us. So I asked Kyle, "Do you have drummer in mind?" And Kyle introduced me to John, and John played with us at this concert at Epistrophy. And then we had a show a few months later, so we asked John, "Do you have a bassist in mind?" And he introduced us to Josh. So it was like a chain reaction effect, you know? I bring Kyle, Kyle brings John and John brings Josh.

AAJ: Perfect.

KA: I don't think there's a more organic way of starting a band.

AAJ: No.

KA: It was a long time—I think 2007 was our first show as a quartet—and the first album came in 2012, and here we are in 2025, releasing our second album. I mean, during that time I released a bunch of different albums with different configurations, but I love these guys. They have been my family away from my family all these years.

Gear

AAJ: You've given me so much... Oh, here's another question for you. This is for the nerdy people who want to know what kind of equipment you like to use. You had effects on "Jisreen," so what is your gear setup there?

KA: Basically, it's just a simple long reverb that I'm using with Ableton Live, so I have my mic hooked to a laptop just for this one tune. I love the multitudes of the clarinet sound, but there are no other effects, just an extended reverb that I think is actually a 22-second reverb or something. And I use a DPA microphone, 4099, which also captures a nice range of the instrument. Like when you superimpose lots of clarinets on top, with long delays, it creates this very interesting choir sound that I love. But when I am not amplified, and also when I am, I use a Selmer clarinet, it's a Privilege, that's the model. And it's all black, for those who sometimes watch me and are curious about whether it's an electronic instrument. No, it is not, it's just simply black-plated keys. But the rest of the setup is really a very standard setup. It's the same setup that I use when I am playing in this setting and when I am playing the Mozart clarinet concerto. I don't change setups.

AAJ: Thanks. With that effect, I've noticed quite a few artists are using effects that seem to stretch the sound out. Maybe it's something in the air.

KA: I think we are all trying to stretch time, in a way. And something that is nice, when we are having long delays or a long reverb, is that you are able to become a listener, too, for a second as you play. You're able to hear your sound when you are not playing, which is something to play around with.

AAJ: Well it's beautiful. And it's particularly gorgeous in that tune.

Bridging Projects

AAJ: I won't ask you too much about "Galileo Galilei," since it's not your piece, but if you want to tell me anything about it, feel free.

KA: Of course it's a piece by Kyle, and I love the piece. And we've also been playing it for last few years. And this is something that is important, also, for me to bring up: The band has other connections outside the band itself. For example, Kyle wrote me a clarinet concerto that I did with a nice orchestra. So when Kyle writes, or when I'm writing, we're not writing for bass and guitar and drums, we're writing for Josh, Kyle and John. So I think that Kyle, when he was writing this piece, he was also thinking, "Let me write something for Kinan to take this solo right here and for John to do this and for Josh to do that. And also, it fits, beautifully, into the vocabulary that the quartet does. Of course, the title is very clear, but if you want to know more you have to reach out to Kyle, because there is only a certain amount of information I can give you on it.

AAJ: Right. So what is coming up for you, what is your next project? What's in the future for you right now with this band?

KA: So the album releases on March 1, 2025 at Joe's Pub in New York. Then we're taking it on tour on the east coast and Chapel Hill. Then we take it to Europe: Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Köln, among other places in April. And then we have a much bigger tour in the US in October, which will include San Antonio, a few things in California. So that's that for the band. I would like to tour with this as much as I can because lots of these pieces I want to put to rest also, and I'm now writing new music for the group. But I'm also now more interested in, and I'm trying to bridge this project with what I do with orchestras. I play often as solo for the orchestras, but now I'm working on kind of a concerto for quartet and orchestra. I haven't found the commissioner yet, but it's something that I'm interested in doing, to bring the four of us as a concerto grosso for it and an orchestra.

AAJ: I'm sure you will find a good commissioner. Anything else you want to tell our readers?

KA: No. I just enjoyed this conversation so much, and I hope that people will find this album interesting. The album was made with lots of love and I hope it will be met with some love back.

AAJ: I'm sure it will.

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